Curse

Str0b0 · Oct 31, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

Void and liable.

I think you mean libel

Tyla · Oct 31, 2007, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexion

if its such a bad build,then why did the FoW group I was in never wipe?

as i said before, i'm not complaining about being kicked... i was talking about it happening in general.

that has nothing to do with what i said,and that build isnt even crappy...plus FoW is easy anyway

Antheus · Oct 31, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

We've all had experiences where a totally off the wall group did amazingly well. I remember the time I formed a group in Ring of Fire which had zero members of the "holy trinity". We completed it faster then I had ever done before. We literally steamrolled over everything and had a blast doing it.

Why do you think so many people say holy trinity sucks?

Because it's slow, wipe-prone, has no utility, and can be trivially shutdown.

Vinraith · Oct 31, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The rule here is simple: don't play with assholes. By and large that means don't PUG, but such is life.

Phoenix Tears · Oct 31, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

it has a reason, why such builds are "popular", because such builds make playing the game easier, than like any "2 mins thought out Noob-Builds", where the creators looked maybe only at the skill names and thought ..this this and that make a cool combination cause of the ksill names ...

but made absolutely no thoughts about, if their noob builds will have any synergies, or if those builds will ruin your energy only in seconds and you have no way of getting back energy...

those special builds are popular, because they are well thought out, they have synergies and they help you not too lose too quick energy and to fight over longer times with more efficiency...
people, which can't understand this, are sry to say that, just unteachable noobs.

When creating a party, for example making a Dungeon in hard Mord, then a search professional gamers, which know how to play and know, which builds are good for certain areas, then i don't search for noobs, which want to play with their "2 minutes- fun builds" and bitch then around, because they got kicked, because they are unable to understand, that they are (or can be)with their builds a heavy risk for the whole team for success.

Most of such fun-builds end up only, that they are not good enough, or simple said, just crapo and the players are then whining about, why their characters have after 15 minutes or a a death penalty of -60% ...
Then I really don't accept it pesonally, when such fools also start then bitching at the monks...that are really then moments in teh game, where i would love to kick these noobs and rather play with 7/8 further...
========

Ping builds is a good feature and should stay, because of that feature, you as party creator can sort out with it the good players out of the masses of noobs out there, before you start a mission/dungeon/quest whatever, ending up with much lesser stress for the whole team

Rexion · Oct 31, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

ok, i see what you all are saying

lets change the note of this topic... since
a. its gone away from the original topic
b. i've figured out why it is actually a good thing.

I think I mis-typed my original post, and I would like to change what I meant.

I meant that the only problem with pinging your build is that people will start to complain about the build you are running. I totally mistyped and made it sound like I'm blaming ANet, i apologize for making it sound like that.

The point I was trying to get across was that it is annoying how people get kicked by arrogant jerks who think that Wiki builds are the SUPER BEST and anything else isn't worthy.

Edit:
and I also run a hybrid heal/prot build... you really think i'm that dumb not to?

Karyuu · Oct 31, 2007, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Oh, for sure

I think everyone hates that, except for the people who do it... But then, is there really any way we can change their behavior? It's kind of like raging against the ocean.

Antheus · Oct 31, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexion

Edit:
and I also run a hybrid heal/prot build... you really think i'm that dumb not to?

Now...
Replace WoH with ZB, replace rebirth with GoLE.

For non-hex areas, and for just regular healing, GoH will work better than Dwayna's.

The reason for ZB instead of WoH is quite simple. In combination with GoLE you get energy management, and it's a self-heal - both of which you're lacking.

The complementary build to that, if you want to run with two prot monks, is to replace WoH with Divert Hexes, and remove hex with Aegis.

And you have your "cookie cutter" prot monk build. So... why all the drama - it works and has been proven.

And at this point, you might as well look into the "cookie cutter" healing builds.

stretchs · Oct 31, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Sorry, I totally love the ping build feature, I understand frustration for being kicked for cookie cutter fitting. But I also look at it a different way, people dont want to spend an hr or 2 doing an area, only to lose because some botard is running a warrior with healing hands, healing breeze and mending. There is always a trade off I guess, but imo the good WAY WAY outweighs the bad. If you want to group and dont want others to be concerned of your build, run h/h or a guild group.

Muspellsheimr · Oct 31, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack

I always run without a tank, just take a warrior instead.

QTFW!

Warrior is one of my favorite class' to play - second only to the Necromancer. I never play as a tank.

yesitsrob · Oct 31, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Now...
Replace WoH with ZB, replace rebirth with GoLE.

For non-hex areas, and for just regular healing, GoH will work better than Dwayna's.

The reason for ZB instead of WoH is quite simple. In combination with GoLE you get energy management, and it's a self-heal - both of which you're lacking.

The complementary build to that, if you want to run with two prot monks, is to replace WoH with Divert Hexes, and remove hex with Aegis.

And you have your "cookie cutter" prot monk build. So... why all the drama - it works and has been proven.

And at this point, you might as well look into the "cookie cutter" healing builds.

This is again completely derailing the thread, for that I'm sorry.

But if you're ditching WoH ditch it for LoD, not ZB. - If your other monk is choosing to run LoD then ditch it for RC or SoD

LoD + ZB combo was shown to be very unreliable a few months after NF, ZB is just too unreliable in a 2 monk set up, especially with skills like LoD and Sig Reju floating around, it's very unlikely that in a solid team you'll get that <50% bonus. and with that said it's also very risky letting something drop below 50%. Especially if you bring hard mode into the equation.

I'd always run LoD or a HB+HP (very rarely though) - I can't see a good reason to choose ZB over SoD, RC, or DH.

Kusandaa · Nov 01, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

I'm sure some do suck, but I'm talking in a general sense. I'm also talking of a general sense of PVP. Not HA players, or AB players, or Hero Battle players. PVP players -generally. That includes the GVG'ers. These ones that go on about being r9 probably don't have r9. Infact they probably haven't even rolled a PVP character before.

Taking such bad res's, is ignorant. Not to flame, I mean ignorance, as in - without knowledge. I'm hoping that you have the intelligence, that if you were to be given the knowledge, you would take the right choice. As I would hate to flame.

Of course everyone can tank. Do you see any prots on that skillbar? No, so it's bad. As for teams running warriors, they should do damage. Warriors (without conditions) do a LOT of damage.

Moot point anyway, you quoted some PVP'ers, not a general lot. Most 'good' PVP players won't play with someone like you (I really don't mean to offend) and most teams run a form of melee in their group.

PVE is no different. There's an objective. You can achieve it sometimes by sucking, or you can achieve it (and usually quicker) by playing well.

To be honest, Rebirth isn't always bad... I don't know why people whine about it. It really depends HOW it's used. On my necromancer I can get a nuker or something fast, without any problem since I have Soul Reaping... at 10 SR, if the fight does NOT stop while I res, I'll be at close to full energy in a short while. I'd NEVER take that on an ele, since I'd have all my energy drained and at 90+e... it's long. Same on monk, same on warrior for obvious, tanking reasons, dervish, etc.

IMHO, that's called knowledge.

And TBH, I don't intend to offend either, but I won't play with PvP players much these days anyways. Most of the PvP players I played with (not all, thank god) have been patronizing and totally arrogant... and when I loook back at it, a lot of the PvE players as well. I guess I'm tired of the general GW community, thus why I'm playing with my friends and/or heroes. We can think outside of the box - and succeed - without dealing with "OMFG YOUR RUNNING THIS BUILD, NOOB!!!!".

Anyways, back on topic... As for my part, I ping my build whenever I have to pug. First of all, to let people know what I'm running, and I accept criticism as long as it's valid. I try to do the same, but some bars are just downright horrible.

Example: We were running ToPK with a 6/8 alliance group - all we were missing were a b/p and an orders necro. The team leader was spamming "GLF Exp. Orders, ping build upon entry". We got the following:

The necro got AUTOMATICALLY kicked. It made no sense whatsoever, and none of us were in the mood to explain how to play orders;
- As a saccing necro, you don't want MORE health. You want LOWER health.
- Meteor Shower causes exhaustion. 'Nuff said.
- Incendiary Bonds is already a "meh" skill on a ele. Passable, but still.
- 6 Soul Reaping, coupled with OoP/OoV spams and Meteor Shower... I don't even want to think about it.
- No self-healing whatsoever, which is primordial for something that sacs a lot (let the monk focus on the b/p's...)

And that's why I'm thankful we make everyone ping builds.

Other than that, I'll gladly help with builds or give advice when needed, just like I want advice when I'm running something.

Chthon · Nov 01, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

The team leader was spamming "GLF Exp. Orders, ping build upon entry". We got the following:

Any player who describes himself in party spam as "exp" or "pro" isn't. The same could be said of people who respond to party spam including these terms. The moral: Next time, don't ask for an "exp" orders.

-----

On an unrelated note: What's up with my posts getting deleted?

Dr Strangelove · Nov 01, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I don't agree build pinging should be removed. If you're in an all-human team it can be beneficial to have other members of the same profession ping their build to make sure you'll not be stepping in each other's toes, so to speak.

In my experience, it takes an idiot to kick someone from a group without even requesting that they alter their skillbar. If I were the group leader, I may request that people ping builds. If a build conflicted with another, I'd flag it up. If someone had a particularly bad build I would try to help them improve it. Only then if they refuse and show a complete lack of team spirit is it time to start kicking folk, after explaining to them why they are to be kicked so that if it happens enough they may figure that they probably should re-evaluate their playstyle.

On the whole many people I have teamed with are only too happy to alter a build or take advice from another player. I, myself, have been on the receiving end of a kicking when I am playing one type of magic and the leader wants another. The fact I may be competant in more than one line of magic doesn't seem to figure in their little heads. I find it rude to kick without first requesting a change.

I certainly wouldn't describe Guild Wars as "pesky", there are plenty of decent people about.

Why do so many threads these days end up in a discussion about the use of Resurrects?

Celestial wins the thread, even if she/he never takes a rez, and is a dirty scotsman.

Snow Bunny · Nov 01, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rexion

Back before ANet allowed people to ping their build to the chat, it seemed groups were formed easier and had no hassle. Now you get kicked if you aren't using the "oh-so popular" build for that set of 2 weeks or that month.

ANet should not have added this feature; it is ruining people's game-play because people are being jerks and kicking for an unpopular build. I have met quite a few people with some really nice builds, but the leader thought it was a peice of junk because it wasn't on wiki (not like that doesn't get your attention). What is even more upsetting is that people are kicking people from groups BECAUSE it is not on wiki -- don't forget some wiki builds are peices of crap.

People need to stop judging builds. As long as the job at hand is being done, everything should be good. As long as a monk heals/prots, an elementalist does good damage, or a ritualist spirit-spams/whatever the build won't matter. I don't see why people get SOOO worked up about how a build is bad and people should be banned from GW because they are not 1337ists.

ANet could fix this by either:
A. taking it out sometime soon
B. leaving it out of GW2
C. *both*

It is sad how GW has gone from amazing to a little pesky.

Post your thoughts?

EDIT:
it's not my builds that I'm getting kicked for... it's other people's that seems somewhat good for a group. Just clearning that up.

If your build sucks, I don't want to play with you. Pinging it tells me if it sucks. Your refusal to change it tells me even more. Tells me enough to kick you out, and make sure I don't have to slog through with a team full of subpar bars.

ValaOfTheFens · Nov 01, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I find that ping saves time in many cases. Going into FoW or any area thats above average difficulty can take an hour of standing around and it sucks when one retarded person messes it up. Some people try to just give you a build but that doesn't work very well. Some builds take practice to play effectively after all. Also, a persons skill bar isn't an indication of their skill in the game. I've met people with the usual copypasta builds and they had no idea what they were doing. *lol* I've been playing since August '06 and I can honestly say that I didn't really learn to play until about June '07. I'm not a pro but I can play a darned good Necro or Ranger and am willing to get good at other professions.

The problem is not with pinging. Its the attitude of many of the people in the game. They'll kick someone who doesn't have the "right" build but never tell him/her what they can do to improve their build. Being a noob or just bad at GW aren't the only reasons people run bad or suboptimal builds. But many "pro" and "expert" players don't want to take the time to help these people and so they never get any better.

Sort of OT: I've been getting alot of people telling me to run copypasta builds on my heroes lately. If I'm in a mixed Pug I ping my heroes builds out of courtesy and everyone seems to think they're experts on what builds are good for them. I've been testing copypasta builds(classic stuff like Obby Tank and B/P Ranger) on my heroes and have had mixed results. Anyway...has this happened to anyone else?

my most questioned build is my MM build for MoW:
[skill]Jagged Bones[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of The Master[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Well of Blood[/skill][skill]Heal Area[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Fitz Rinley · Nov 01, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Well, I have a tendency Not to PUG. But When I Do, I have seen some amazing things. I had the pleasure of doing Hell's not long back, run by a warrior with a pet. It was after the Winter/GC nerf. The warrior and second in the list both had bad builds. But I waited until we got wiped once before making suggestions.

Something else, recently someone was asking for help. They were kicked by a party because they were a Wa/Mo and were told they were kicked because Wa/Mos are useless in high end areas. I suspect it was more than that - becasue when I asked how they wanted to run their warrior - I got a build that was deficient by 30 Att Pts, had no elite skills, and none of the skills chained or even cooperated. (Ie. stances that would cancel one another.) So, I set about helping the warrior to first get their att points, get their secondary classes, and discuss some skill theory about chaining skills. Then I showed them that with a good monk - a warrior does not need to heal themselves. And boy did he like doing damage for a change. As he had survived to RoF without any of the above niceties, he was more than skilled enough to play a real build once he had the tools.

No, I really like build pinging. The sharing for constructive and beneficial reasons far outweighs the rules lawyers. And there are places where builds really need to be shared - Modoc Crevice leaps to mind, Rihlon Reach is another, Fighting Shiro and the Lich also. If the skill bars of the members will not cover needed areas - the proper thing for a leader to do is ask "Who can be my best interupter? Who can pull/call, tank, heal, prot, etc.

There has never been any official reason for the party leader to be responsible for the party, the only thing they can do the others cannot is launch the mission (Tyria and Cantha only) and kick. Still, somehow this translates into responsibility for the mission. And lets face it - some granted responsibility/authority will overreact.

rick1027 · Nov 01, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

all and all i love the ability to ping your build in guild chat we tend to ping a lot of builds and discuss them. i can say i've made builds better. there has been times i wish someone would have pointed out my skill choice when i actually took the wrong elite and didn't notice it til i was half way through a mission. had been doing b/p and really wanted bha in there knew what worked better for the mission just forgot to change. i never get angry when someone asks for something as long as they decide to discuss why its better and for party sake i've changed my builds to synergize better. i remember a time when doing vizunah with my necro i wanted to go mm and there was another mm and i was all for taking 2 mms i was able to talk group into allowing me to mm at the time ended up we got masters. there is alway the pug that will kick you because you werent what they wanted or not give you a chance to change your build before demanding a ping. sad fact is most of the time they don't ask you to change before they kick.

anonymous · Nov 01, 2007, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Pinging skills is not the problem, if you had typed out your skills you would've also been kicked by the same person. It is the player, not the mechanic.

Now, unless the leader kicked you without asking you to change your build, then he wasn't being a jerk.

Master Sword Keeper · Nov 01, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Ping'in builds for friend's, AC and GC and wateva's neat, but as someone else has said if your builds not what the leader wants then there is discrimatory and a lot of it. I think a person should be able to use what build they prefer that will do or wont do the job.

Me personally I always create decent enough builds to desicate my enemies, Though sometimes the leader can be a real twit and think it's not going to work. Just test it out and see what works well for your party.

Remember it's only a game.